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Internet Filtering


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#1 OFFLINE   Mystic

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 04:53 PM

Although it is starting to look as though the internet filtering plan put forward by Senator Conroy is unlikley to get through parliament before the next election, it is certainly one that is causing ripples around the world. Thought it might be curious to see what our members think of this plan?

Unless you have been living under a rock for the past 6 months, you have no doubt heard the hype, that this will prevent the spread of child pornography, and make the internet a safer place for all Australians who will mange to avoid all the nasty stuff that is out there. The spin tells us that only material that is refused classification in Australia will be filtered and blocked and that anyone who opposes this must, by default have no interest in protecting children from exploitation.

As most law enforcement agencies are well aware, the majority of child porn is not spread through designated public websites, but through peer to peer networking groups, which are far more difficult to locate, track and shut down. The content in such networks is not held on any one single computer, but shared between all the users. There is no single identifiable address that can be targeted. In short, this filter will, effectively, do nothing to stop the trade in such content. The alternative suggestion of packet snooping might work a little better and be more effective at combating this problem, but the trade off is that every single thing you view, send, or examine on the internet would then be open for observation and stored. In short Big Brother would be watching every move, email, and site you are involved with and internet privacy would be a thing of the past. Packet snooping is virtually installing a digital camera inside every computer in the country to watch its users at all times. As nobody is beyond corruption, that means all of your private details would be open to exploitation. It would be a hackers dream toy as well, and considering that not even the white house, or the American military have been able to completely secure their networks against hackers, we cannot possibly guarantee the security of any packet snooping network or database. In short, both systems fail to protect children, though the second method has the added risk to not only personal security, but national security as well.

Outside of this though, I believe there are far more worrying concerns about the types of things that are going to be blocked. Watching the ABC last night I noticed that aged persons groups are now getting training in how to get around the filter so that they will continue to have access to information that might help them end their own lives with dignity, should the need ever arise.

Young people experimenting with drugs are also able to find a wealth of information that might just save their lives at the moment by sourcing websites that provide accurate information about what drugs can do, potential side effect, other risks, etc. These kinds of sites would also be blocked. Ignorance is no protection when what is required is information. We are not going to stop people trying various substances, but we can at least ensure that they are doing so as safely as is possible. Censorship has never worked in the past and it will not stop people trying drugs in the future.

Australia has never been the most progressive country in the world when it comes to free flow of information and our classification board can sometimes be overly protective, so the risk is that many quite harmless things could find their way into a refused classification structure and be blocked. Naturally we would not have access to any list of websites that are in fact blocked, and the reason for this is because the government knows just how easy it would be for the average user to get around such restrictions. Such secrecy almost proves the fact that the filter will not work.

We also have a problem that could arise under this plan. Consider the fact that a social networking site such as twitter or facebook is made up by the contributions of millions of people from all corners of the world, people with very diverse interests. These people could be discussing things like drug use or euthanasia, and the parts of the world where they are living allow these things to be employed without penalty. The filter would be unable to simply block a single user, or even a group of users, and so will we then see social networking sites closed down and blocked for access by Australians? This is definitely a very real possibility as simply complaining to the owners of such websites would not necessarily result in accounts that discuss those things being closed, especially as the person may not be breaking any laws in their own country.

The bottom line though is that this is going to cost a great deal of money to set up, monitor, and run. The expense is going to return absolutely no protection to the people of Australia, can be easily circumvented, and may well slow down internet speeds in a country that already lags behind much of the world in that area.

Many people are apparently confused by the continual talk of just how easy something like this would be to get around. Perhaps 5 minutes spent looking at the tools and information available through the Global Internet Freedom Consortium would help, or simply research the word "proxy".

With the fear of opening a gigantic can of worms here, would be interested in the thoughts of others???:unsure:
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#2 OFFLINE   dave

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 06:03 PM

scary times indeed, we are at risk of invoking a Chinese like mentality whereupon criticism of any official or a casual observance of what some may deem to be inappropriate material may be a jailable offense, who is to ascertain it's appropriateness, certainly not Canberra who has the most paedophiles and the most lax laws on porn in the country including kiddy porn, whilst not condoning certain aspects of the internet in any way I applaud it's "openness" and one's ability to "have a nose", if I so desire, at any subject that may or may not cross my mind, I for one am old enough and silly enough to make my own way through the treacherous waters alone thank you very much, if I need help from big brother I will ask for it, this represents, to me, one thin edge of a very long wedge designed to separate us from certain god given freedoms that are ours by simply being born in a magical place like Australia, we are a lucky country indeed, we have many freedoms that are the envy of the rest of the world and yet we get folks like this that wish to take them from us, I say if he or anyone else doesn't like our god given freedoms than he and anyone else may feel "free" to leave the country,................... I say "nick off you wowser" and leave us to our freedoms!..............you see!! yet another of our freedoms, the freedom to say what we want to whom we want and about what we want without fear of a prison sentence, try that in china!!.........are we to lose that next, i think not!.........to arms people, to arms, shangeyes at the ready...........no wonder they nicked our guns off us... at least Yankee land still have theirs, wouldn't dare try it over there!
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#3 OFFLINE   Cascade

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 06:26 PM

Ok... yup its a can of worms allright......

Firstly I am tired of pollies who seem to make decisisions to make a name for themselves. Anyone who has been around computers long enough knows that given time everything done up... can be and will be undone. I spent my early years on, wait for it, Commodore 64 and 128"s unprotecting software & games etc, why because I could and it was a challenge but I didn't distribute. End of that story.

I would be the first person given the chance who would string up a paedophile with a couple of shark hooks through his crown jewels and a length of fencing wire through the hooks to hoist him up and then attach a nice powerfull pulsating electric fence unit to the wire. Yes I know there are also women as well but I wont describe that.

Regardless on what Internet filters are in place they will find other ways to find the files they are after or distribute them and many already do so.... Chat rooms, DVD's in the mail, emails, P2P etc etc. I have a mate in the law enforcement area involved in finding them online, he tells me their networking is unbelievable which makes them hard to track down, but they do catch them. He also says they have been around longer than the Internet, it just makes it easier for them.

I taught my kids that there is bad stuff out there and trusted them to use the Internet and just shut down bad sites, especially when they just popped up. I know they looked at some but once they had seen enough they generaly steered clear. Modern parents need to be responsible and be in the know on what their kids are up to. If you don't want them to see whats on the Internet then keep them off it or get rid of the Internet connection.
A lot of parents these days expect the system to discipline their kids, ask any teacher, a lot of parents have no idea how to say "NO" and mean it.

Finally, I'm not a paedophile and I really don't see why a minister of the Australian Goverment thinks he has the right to decide what I read or see when I am online. I don't need to be controlled, I can manage that all by my little self........



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#4 OFFLINE   Mystic

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 06:45 PM

I like your thoughts Dave. I was actually quite heavily involved in politics back in 1988 when the NSW state Govt first attempted to introduce gun control. The rallies were enormous, and very heated indeed. I was quite surprised that such attitudes changed when the laws were introduced. And yet, what is the result of those restrictions? Has gun crime dropped? I don't think so, given that drive by shootings are now a common part of city life in most parts of Australia. They certainly were not common back when the laws were introduced.

Well said Cascade. Hey did I know you back in the eighties? Had a friend who also enjoyed cracking software protection on old C64 & 128 stuff. Those cimputers were a touch more advanced than my original unit, a TI99, but that's a whole different conversation.

You make one very good point in saying that many parents need to take their parenting much more seriously. I know there is bad stuff happening with kids on the net, and I would be the first person to support anything that might actually work to protect them better, but this is not it. Shane & I have discussed this often and one thing that amazes me is how parents allow their children to access the internet totally unsupervised. I wonder if those same parents would allow their children to wander totally unsupervised through red light districts? Some how I doubt it very much, yet they seem not to care what their children are doing on the net.

Recently I read the book "Portnoy's Complaint", which I came across in a church op-shop of all places. When I was a teenager this book was banned, along with many others. I found it quite humorous and quite mild by standards of the kind of material we view on television these days, but it does highlight that standards change. Many societies have attempted book burning in the past and it simply tends to make good people turn to underground methods to get the things they want.

I would prefer this discussion does not turn into a debate on how to deal with paedophiles, as I am sure we all agree this is something we would like to see eradicated from our society. The question is though, will the plans to filter our internet content achieve that? Also, although this seems to be the one that is being touted as the main reason for this censorship, the reach of the plan is much deeper and will include a broad range of material.

Another aspect of this that I find curious is that during my earlier years I read numerous books by well known scientists, including Albert Hoffman (the man who discovered LSD25) on the effects and side effects of most drugs and naturally occurring psychedelic substances. Many of these books are an important part of anthropology and used widely by university students. Such material would be banned and blocked under this plan, will the books remain inside university and public libraries, and will their websites be blocked for providing such content?
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#5 OFFLINE   dave

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 08:02 PM

yep all relevant and good points, the pedophilia is one that really irks me, like cascade I have all sorts of "things" that I would like to see done to the offenders but this really goes further than just that one topic, I see it as a "starting point" things like doctor nitschke's plans for a death machine would not be attainable from the net, I am a pro right to life person, I also believe that when the time comes I should just be able to say enough, time to go and thats that, my life, my decision I believe, by hiding such useful sites this undermines that decision and takes it out of my hands, these folks as you say Anna would not allow the kiddies to wander through our dark places but quite happily let little johnny loose on a machine that deals with all desires good and bad unsupervised, I see the internet filter act as an acid eating away just one of our civil liberties and like acid once the initial target is attained and destroyed it then focuses on something else, it does not stop, we allow this one through then what is next, my evening cuppa before bedtime because it may keep me awake that wee bit longer, nay I say!! pick up our slings and grab a pocket full of pebbles take aim at a pollie and shout to the windows "we're mad as hell, and we aint gonna take this one" I suggest a letter to our local member of quite stoic and stiff wording intent to say we do not want or need this, maybe petitions circulating would just place an unwanted light upon it's real underlying intent, which of course is to place more control on us unwashed masses! never mind, I'll put my soap box away now!!
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those that mind, dont matter and those that matter, dont mind!!!

if you come across someone without a smile,.................. give them one of your's....... and watch it grow!

never be mean with a kind word, ........................you may need one yourself one day!

just as I get used to today along comes tomorrow!



#6 OFFLINE   Tessc

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 08:17 PM

I think it is going to create the biggest headache we have ever seen on the net. I'm all for blocking innappropriate content but I think that should be done in the home and maybe even when you buy the computer it already has a filter on it?
This Senator is the same nitwit that came out with the suggestion we put speed humps on the national highways as it worked really well in residential areas!!!Posted Image

#7 OFFLINE   dave

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Posted 17 April 2010 - 10:59 AM

Hmmmm!! speed humps on highways!!! good grief, what next, telling us where and when we can drive our car or maybe what bread we should be eating, perhaps a study into this fellers life would reveal a few defects that we may be able to suggest cures for and implement restrictions on! shoe on the other foot type of thing!

but it wont create any headaches, the software and knowledge is already out there for us to download that will circumvent any type of filtering, not sure if it will concern me as I am not 100% sure what will be filtered, porn (I dont go there) pedophilia (I dont go anywhere near), death machines (as yet I have no use for) until it affects me I dont even think I will realise it is there, if it affects my browsing habits then I will trace the software or knowledge and get around it!

it just irks me that I am of an age where surely I can make up my own mind what I wish to see or do, there are filtering devices already available from microsquat that will get rid of most of the naughty stuff!
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those that mind, dont matter and those that matter, dont mind!!!

if you come across someone without a smile,.................. give them one of your's....... and watch it grow!

never be mean with a kind word, ........................you may need one yourself one day!

just as I get used to today along comes tomorrow!



#8 OFFLINE   Mystic

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Posted 17 April 2010 - 12:18 PM

Yes, the speed humps idea was a ripper for sure. Glad that one was killed off quite quickly.

Like you Dave, the majority of stuff that is likely to be blocked in the initial release would not bother me. Though I do subscribe to various philosophical debate sites where subjects such as euthanasia are discussed openly, and it does concern me that such sites may be blocked. Similarly most of the sociological sites I visit also frequently discuss the social impacts of and research and debate into numerous issues that would be blocked (drug use, euthanasia, etc).

The most worrying part for me is that we seem to be creating more and more regulations these days to force people into "safe" lives, wrapping us in a legislated cocoon so that we definitely have no opportunities to excercise the three wise monkeys. If we are not able to take risks, then we miss tremendous learning opportunities.

One of the scariest moments in Australia's recent history was when Johnny Howard spoke during the Haneef case and stated "that if a few innocent people go to prison, that was an acceptable cost of protecting the people". Civil liberties matter for very little today, and are fast vanishing. It is no wonder that Australia refuses to enact a Bill of Rights. No need for such a Bill if we have no rights left to defend.
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#9 OFFLINE   dave

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Posted 17 April 2010 - 01:24 PM

You're quite right Anna, when a problem arises the "shotgun" affect is the first line of defense, I.E. hawk amongst the pigeons then deploy the 12 gauge and if a few pigeons get killed as well as the hawk well thems the breaks, I dont condone this action, I think a well placed accurate bullet is called for in the case of the hawk, in this instance the ones that are causing the trouble should be targeted and not the innocent, it has been proven in the past that laws dont curtail bad behavior, gun laws didn't stop murders it just stopped the home owner from protecting himself, more people are killed, injured and maimed each year by household cutlery, is this person going to ban all knives, what about the deaths through legal drugs such as alcohol and cigarettes??? cars are a major cause of death for our young!!, this law will not stop porn or other bad behavior it will just make the evil doers seek alternative routes and punish the innocent once again, we make choices every second, watch this, dont watch that, do this or that we've been making decisions all our lives we dont need big brother taking care of us

it is simply an invasion (once again) of our civil rights! never mind, soapbox back now!!
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those that mind, dont matter and those that matter, dont mind!!!

if you come across someone without a smile,.................. give them one of your's....... and watch it grow!

never be mean with a kind word, ........................you may need one yourself one day!

just as I get used to today along comes tomorrow!



#10 OFFLINE   Mystic

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Posted 17 April 2010 - 01:35 PM

No problems with your soapbox Dave, this is right place to bring it out.

When I was younger we had a saying...locks keep honest people out.

I guess laws only keep honest people from doing certain things as well. Never could figure out why they thought a person who was set on a murderous rampage with a gun was ever going to stop and consider that they might get two years for having an illegal firearm.
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